Do Humans Have Free Will?

[SpiralCycle]

this has been a question on my mind recently and just popped up after seeing a similar question.

i have not been able to find the answer of absolutely knowing ...keword: absolutely knowing that we have free will. i have contemplated this for a huge amount of time and this is one of the most important questions i have ever even thought of.

it seems like we have the will to do as we please and choose but at the same time everything seems to "happen for a reason" even though we would choose other wise.

yet i have kept in mind not worrying about free will because we are all one even if some see it and some don't and this point is made very apparent and stressed multiple times in the ra material.

yet in most all the edgar cayce readings that i have seen the closest answer to it was: "we have the will to do this or that" but never actually says we have free will to will ourselves to do this and that which are two totally different things. (as far as i have found maybe others have better material in his readings).

but it would seem almost that if we are one being it does not matter what we as indivduals do because we all are following the golden mean or universal pattern therefore are just the will of the universe.

ahhhhh.. but wait! everything also seems to come from a zero point of pure benevolance and from that highest benevolance (highest benevolance meaning the universe is already at the point of its highest potential at all times because if form had a choice it's best choice would the formless which is completely pure) and also everything has to be now. anything can change within the now but the now is always there.

so since the universe is so naturally intelligent and powerful it could just be that we choose with free will to step out of the now because thier is both infinite time and space to do so and gives each of us individual space and systems as cayce described them for all of our free willed choice to be harnessed within this universal super computer. the first thing the purest form offers is benevolance to all that is in its higher form and then that benevolance would seem to give free will. (which was just in davids reading that he initially gave to a human couple and ended up as a reading for many people). i had also thought about the first option from the highest purity was also free will before david had mentioned it in his reading from the ra entity.

but on the side of no free will everything has to line up perfectly in order for thing not to have anamolys and be chaotic. like in order for me to stress this thread to others it has taken what seems to be: a universe-a hospitable planet-evolved species-communal technology-a common view point-electricity-perfect timing ect ect ect ect. so it can be argued that all things that have experience and seem to have choices are all dependent upon causes and conditions that would otherwise have not of happed which i believe runs somewhat congruent with the butterfly effect.

hmm wellllll hope someone gets some in depth answers and don't just post what materials say and can't show you why. we need some good hard evidence here.

i thank all of you who listen i really glow when i see others take the time to put effort into these threads. :d

[1VibrationalEnergy]

i am starting to believe that "free will" and "everything happens for a reason" coconstitute one another like each indivdual and his or her world.

they are interdependent of eachother. you need them both in order to be created and to create.

[transiten]

hello spiral cycle

if we did not have free will, what would the meaning of our existence be? wre don't have free will to do whatever without consequences, but if we didn't have free will to choose evil we wouldn't discover good either. the thought of man not having free will makes me sick. that would mean that something outside ourselves were manipulating us like puppets on a string, which we also are as long as our consciousness level is low.

free will without boundaries is not free will but total chaos, we must have something to relate to, ohterwise we would not discern our free will from the opposite....

my 2 cents liliane the transit

[andromeda]

earth is a love school in which basically we can choose to make the right choice, to act from love, or not and suffer pain.

even with this binnary choice, choosing the right kind of love is not straight forward and we many times take the wrong turn.

so, we have free will to choose whether we suffer or not. suffering is only caused by the lack of love to self or others.

love

[leo scone]

if free-will implies total freedom, unlimited choice, then the answer is an obvious no - we do not have free will. total freedom likely only comes in source itself, and even then it seems that source is not merely compelled to create, but it is the ultimate "no-thing" as well. no free will there either. and there is no amount of will that would set one outside of the one, so there is some ultimate order, some ultimate pattern which all must oblige. no amount of will can free one from unity.

do we have limited free will? absolutely. so what is that? one of the best ways i have come to understand our free will is that it is our ability to choose our own freedom/limitation factors within manifestation.

for example, perhaps i want to be a total hippie, bang my bongos on the beach all day, bong my bhang, and beach all my ambition. freedom! huzzah! and the obvious limitations are you don't know when and where you'll get your next hot shower. people can't reach you to involve you in exciting social events because you don't have a phone. [off-color though funny remark removed-pm leo to ask about it]

instead one may draw the freedom/limitation line thusly, the opposite way. the inherent limitations of maintaining a home, a phone, a social life? one rarely, if ever, gets the opportunity to properly while away their days bong-bongoing on the beach.

so, within the limitations of all of creation, whatever the localized universal rules manifest as, we have absolute will to choose where we draw the line that decides the factors of our own freedom and limitation.

mind you, this is not merely polarity, or duality. it is not just a choice between two things. it is the choice of where one places one's perception upon an infinite line, many infinite lines even. i suspect some aspect of this freedom/limitation factor continues on even into 6d, where, as i recall from the law of one, the duality of love/fear becomes reconciled. existence other than as source still must fall as a point on an infinite line, or at best as the intersecting points of a wave crossing that infinite line.

as for absolutes?...eh. even if science came up with a program or experiment to prove it absolutely, and published all the results far and wide, would that change one's experience? would it alter one's need to address and co-create their own reality? nope.

use the will you have, with love and intent, and seek the balance that affords the greatest freedom and the least limitation. that is the center where love rests, where it seems we all wish to dwell. total freedom, absolute free will, is rather intimidating actually. let's just find our center first!

[Enkidu]

nothing in 3d life is ever absolutely known...... it is knowing that you do not know which grants you power/wisdom in this level of progression.

questioner: i am assuming that it is not necessary for an individual to
understand the law of one to go from the third to the fourth density. is
this correct?

ra: i am ra. it is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. understanding is not of this density.

law of one, session 16, page 164.

continue spiraling ever upwards,
austin

[billybobbutterball]

this has been a question on my mind recently and just popped up after seeing a similar question.

i have not been able to find the answer of absolutely knowing ...keword: absolutely knowing that we have free will. i have contemplated this for a huge amount of time and this is one of the most important questions i have ever even thought of.


you are right, it is a most important and essential philosophical question, particulary in regards to christian theology where it has been considered a real pain-in-the-backside's gordian knot for mileniums.

when one asks the average person what the term, freewill, actually means --and what that implies -- they usually get a impatient look on their faces and declare something on the order of this: "well, i'm not quite sure how best to describe it, but i know for sure as heck that i've got it!" then they follow this up with a triumphant smile while waving their arms freely to and fro to demonstate their point.:d

in christian theology the fuss is over man's fallen relationship with god. question: "can man -- by using his freewill power of choice -- choose god and salvation?...or does one have to depend on the influx of the holy spirit to overpower his sinful nature and enmity with god in order to effect the change? doctrinely speaking, on one side you have the "feewill" theologians known as "arminians" and on the other side are the pre-determinists, known as "calvinists". needless to say, believers have been burned at the stake over this very question.

part of this squabble is fueled because of the orthodox conception of god and his creation...(that's usuns ) the general view is that the cosmos was created out of nothing (a miraculous creation ex nilhilo ) therefore there is an absolute gulf seperating the creator from his creation. this is a theistic view of god with the divine creator held as transcedent to his alien creation.

however the above concept is not true according to the loo religious philosophy. with "all is one" comes a different view of things as per "the divine cosmos" in this case there is only an apparent but not real gulf between the one creator and its creation simply because god is the cosmos. obviously the one creator is immanent.with itself (if that was all to it this belief would be describably as pantheism. but -- and this is most important -- though god is the cosmos the cosmos is not god. the concept of panentheism covers both grounds by holding that the one creator is greater than the mere sum of the cosmic parts. the higher doctrine would be that god is both immanent and transcendent.

so instead of being mere alien puppet things created out of nothing...we are created out of the very being of god. 'god with us' suddenly takes on a different twist!

wow! everthing changes!...the old idea of "sin" (i.e., rebellion against god) has got to be redacted, it just doesn't apply in the original feudal sense of rebelling serf's breaking laws laid down by the king in the castle and thus due for proper punishment.

so -- considering the above -- what is and what isn't freewill?

first of all we must put "choices" in the right perspective. our choices are an effect not a cause. the actual cause of our actions originates within our nature. the so-called freedom of the will -- as self-determination -- merely describes that mental/spiritual condition which is the abiding inclination of the permanent spiritual self. the subjective energy of the human will is all that a man can call his own and be responsible for.

freedom of will is not the same as freedom of action, or being dependant upon having a vast variety of choice options presented to us. our freedom of will is internal and not dependent on making or not making choices. being put into prison is a violation of our personal freedom but not directly that of our free will. now to be "brainwashed" would be a violation. being given certain information that would force itself onto our thinking in a manner to radically change it would be a violation of will -- even if the person asked for such...and that is what the ra studiously attempted to avoid. on the other hand withholding information would not be a violation (oft times i would wish my info bank would be violated...in the right direction of course:) but short cuts to spiritual growth don't help but rather detour our spiritual adventure)

having free will doesn't mean we can accomplish things outside of our proper sphere of activity. i cannot by an act of will immediately change certain emotions or circumstances... such as deciding to repent and love god with all my heart and mind...to painlessly will away the consequences of a habit which was started by a simple and careless act of will such as smoking... or more dramatically final, jumping off a towering cliff.:eek:

somewhere in the dc archives resides a posting i did a couple of years ago where i copied a list of positive definitions of finite freedom, plus several negative definitions, with the benevolent idea that it could serve as an ongoing reference aid. i can't find it. i feel my will is being violated...not my free will...just my everyday ordinary will.:mad:

if the above doesn't resonate, just delete.

best. bbbb

[Robert Riedel]

greetings campers,

the short answer to the question raised by this thread is: yes, all humans and others, living on any 3d/4d planet/reality have free will. it's one of the reasons we come here. but, free will is not "free", in the sense that here, all decisions have consequences. god, his angels, those of sixth density and beyond, do not have free will. they do not have the option to chose evil. this is how angels "fall"...

bob

[SuperManny]

well maybe not everyone has free will.

my ex-wife, for instance had an outrageously expensive will! :d

[Detlef]

greetings campers,

the short answer to the question raised by this thread is: yes, all humans and others, living on any 3d/4d planet/reality have free will. it's one of the reasons we come here. but, free will is not "free", in the sense that here, all decisions have consequences. god, his angels, those of sixth density and beyond, do not have free will. they do not have the option to chose evil. this is how angels "fall"...

bob

quite correct, only now i come to the understanding, who ever will go through the rupture or shift will have made their choice within the concept of free will, and with that have alined with the light. with that no more free will.
by the way, angels do not fall.
all implications play out within their respective vibrational levels.
regards detlef

[astraya]

in reference to astrology & free will, cayce says,
"while there are those influences [from the planets] those urges latent and manifested, know that no urge surpasses the will of the entity - that birthright given each soul that it may know itself to be itself, and by choice become one with the creator...."2571-1
&
"for life is a continuous experience. and the mind, the soul, the will, are those influences that act through material manifestation for the improvement, the development, or for retardment to the whole of the experience."1235-1

[debbieloslo]

a thought of mine on free will.
i believe we have the choice (free will) to choose either the positive energy,
or the negative energy. our free will allows us to choose good or bad,
whether it be to service to others, or service to self.

if we have been in service to ourselves, we have free will to change to
service to others, or vice a versa.

as the negative and positive must exist side by side, free will has allowed
us to choose which direction we will take, as neither is right or wrong.


peace & love!

[billybobbutterball]

more info than you want concerning the phenomenon of will.

the proper answer to the question: "is there freedom of the will" might be that of yes and no. it all depends upon the perspective.

in respects to a freewill choice the natural question should come up, "just what caused the will's choice?"

caused it! ah, there's the rub! free will is something supposedly floating around untouched by influences... free to strike out without any strings attached.

the reformist, martin luther wrote a treatise on the characteristics of the will in response to the great scholar erasmus who had levied a work upholding the concept of free will in contrast to martin luther's ideology. martin's devastating counter-argument consisted of "on the bondage of the will" -- aspects of that work have remained unanswered down through the centuries.

for our purposes, what it boils down to is this: yes, the will is indeed free in its motion of self-determination, but the will itself is in bondage to the underlying nature of the individual. so, the acts of the will have a cause behind its action, which are not suprisingly found residing in what we think of as the "heart".

so, perhaps a more accurate description of relatively free acts of self-determination would be that of "heart will" rather than the baggage-loaded, indeterministic term, "free will".

all of this reminds me of the trick question that has no suitable answer from an innocent one. question: "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" "yes, of course..! i mean, no...ahhh, hmm. wait just a sec here!!....":eek:

best, billybobbutterball esq.:)

[AmelieJolie]

what is the true meaning of free will? how much do we know when we are born? do we all have a conscience? do our circumstances mold us? if we are not taught a skill or have not acquired the wisdom, then surely we are limited; not in control?

how can we judge another when we have not walked in their shoes?

does sadness lead us to madness.....compelled by the ebb and flow and the tide....into the shadow?

is there any such thing as "right" and "wrong" or are we simply led......misled by this veil?

have we forgotten who we truly are?

are all dark acts really a reaction of confusion....of madness.....and longing.....to return once more- to who we truly are? because we realize this world is mad.....and something isn't right?

who is free?

perhaps there is only love. perhaps only love can set us free.

perhaps.....there is no real evil except ignorance itself; a desensitization; an amnesia of our true nature- unity with all of life.

[Rhonda]

hello everyone, i found this reading and thought i would post:

from ec and group dynamics by worth kidd (1971)

2537-1
....so soon as man contemplates his free will he thinks of it as a means of doing th eopposite of god's will, though he finds that only by doing god's will does he find happiness. yet, the notion of serving god sits ill with him, for he sees it as a sacrifce of his will. only in disillusion and suffering, in time, space and patience, does he come to the wisdom that his real will is the will of god, and in its practice is happiness and heavens.

262-3
as we open our hearts, our minds, our souls, that we may be a channel of blessings to others, so we have the mind of christ, who took upon himself the burden of the world. so may we, in our own little sphere, take upon ourselves the burden of the world. the joy, the peace, the happieness, that may be ours is in doing for other fellow. for, gaining an understanding of the laws as pertain to right living in all is phases makes the mind in attune with creative forces which are of his consciousness. so we may have that consciousness, by putting into action that we know.

5749-14
q- should the christ-consciousness be described as the awareness within each soul, imprinted in the pattern on the mind and waiting to be awakened by the will, of the soul's oneness with god?

a- correct. that's the idea exactly! (doesn't this answer sound like dc today)
the soul, carrying the blueprint of the christ-consciousness is the real self. this is the part of us that is determine we shall grow; that we shall strip aside our materialistic ego's and achieve oneness with the father. we have free will. the choice of oneness or separateness is ours.

the lord thy god is one. 3376-2

[KassandraLoves]

just as it is when we attend school in our youth...our curriculum is set. what we do with it is up to us at all times...

its not what life gives, its what you do with it.... :d

[ayadew]

ra: i am ra. it is absolutely necessary that an entity consciously realize it does not understand in order for it to be harvestable. understanding is not of this density.


indeed. the only thing i've understood is that i understand absolutely nothing.

free will and "fate" is one of the classic paradoxes.
we create paradoxes because of our flawed and limited understanding of this world in 3:rd density.

we have the free will to believe in free will or fate.
yet fate has decided for us to have free will.

it's a futile discussion i think.

[larissa]

i was sitting here, trying to think of what to write, because i think this is an interesting question, and my thoughts went to the interview i heard earlier on, with rik clay talking about the 11:11 synchronicities, and how that would tie into free will; he talks about all these important events happening within the framework of those numbers, and how was all that planned, what's it all about anyway, and i looked down at the clock on my computer, and it was 11:11, nice one.

when you watch all the research on mind manipulation that has been going on for thousands of years, makes you wonder just how much individual freedom there is. i find myself constantly thinking and doing things seemingly against my will, if i was a sane, rational, functional being, i would not have these self destructive impulses.

i know i am manipulated within myself by the events in my past, by the belief structures that have been placed from the outside, by oh so many influences, just where do i fit into all that, and who am i?

who's pulling the strings? anyone with half a brain can see all the string pulling going on in this world - it would appear that whoever is doing it must be insane. we're told to stop giving away our power and come into our own power. is that what free will is?

in the movie the green beautiful, the inhabitants of the little planet took back their power by boycotting all harmful products, and brought about a revolution into a golden age. that movie was banned by the european union, it wasn't allowed to be sold or shown, ( luckily youtube came through and you can see it there ). does anybody still think big brother doesn't exist?

my mind boggles. an uplifting, piece of art movie was banned. i still can't get over it. as much as i have been aware for 40 years now, about the bb phenomenon, it's still hard to grasp. but wait, if someone is trying that hard to suppress us, it must mean there is a threat, and there is such a thing as free will. right?

i hope this discussion continues, i'd love to see some more points of view.

[billybobbutterball]

hi, guys

every time the subject of free will comes up my buttons get automatically pushed and i get twisted all out of shape. yeah. no kidding. to whit i just went and looked in the bathroom mirror -- it is true! ghastly reflection! (kidding...its always ghastly)

anyway, the subject has come up several times on the forum, and for those interested please do a site search under "free will" threads.

the title of this post hints at the phenomena of one having two wills...and as can be imagined they are often in conflict with each other despite the fact that they are like siamese twins in their coexistence.

our "ego" consciousness is where our sense of free will seems to abide. it must be understood, however, that such will is not actually free since it is an epiphenomenon stemming from an underlying cause. (think of a tail wagging a dog)

okay, but it seems free, as one poster pointed out. it seems to have the ability to arbitrarily will what it wills...tho it is often weak-willed and can't live up to its intentions...in fact the will oft times changes its mind in mid-stream ...which is not necessarily a measure of freedom but rather that of fickle caprice.

example: i "will" myself to give up smoking/drinking right now!:mad:..... next day: well, maybe i should taper off.:p

i picked up some insights from dr. bruce lipton via his work, the biology of belief according to lipton's revolutionary findings (that back up the loo) a human is composed of some 50 trillion cells working in a surprisingly phenomenal condition of aware harmony -- instead of the neo-darwinian idea of the "survival of the fittest" obtaining we have instead a condition that might be best described as the "survival of the most cooperative".

dna is not the rigid potential limiter and instructor of the organism. the cells are instead aware and receptive to input from the environment, both physical and mental, with the cells outer membrane being their brain receptor. the cells are able to respond and adapt to ambient condition in a manner above and beyond the original genetic blueprint outline. (lipton, in effect, is reviving the long-discredited spirit of lamarckian evolution -- proposed some 50 years before darwin came along to trash it)

so, we have this amalgamation of symbioses called a body... fashioned along the way by whatever impinges on it. the software that runs this conglomeration via sending out multi-millions of instructions per minute is loosely called the unconscious mind; it has been programmed by reacting to the conditioning impact of experience, and it keeps plugging along, well set in its ways and course by sheer inertia.

note: the sub-conscious is immeasurably more powerful, by thousands, than that ephemeral, will-of-thee-wisp we most closely associate with and think of as the "conscious mind/will". when the teeny-weeny conscious will confronts the status quo of the humungus subconscious will, and attempt to change its learned course, it simply gets trampled under foot.

lipton was long frustrated in that simple positive affirmations didn't work worth a darn to retrain the psyche. serendipitously he did find a technique that was spectacularly successful in reaching and retraining the sub-conscious mind. a key technique was developed by a psychologist named rob williams using his psych-k method employing kinesiology.

so, we have discovered our enemy and he turns out to be (part of) ourselves.:eek:

so, our free will is free --- to be really sneaky in trying to out-psych big brother down below -- when trying to make major changes in the direction of the flow of our conditioned life style. done correctly, relentless, deeply emotional prayer/affirmation is an option.

for those of you who have made it this far, sorry for being so tedious...apologies for leaving a lot of holes in the sketchy outline above.

love! bbb aka free will bill :)



"whether or not we have freewill, the universe behaves as if we have freewill, which is really all that matters."

[leo scone]

let's try the beast's view, that of aleister crowley (whoa now! i hear them bells and whistle's going off! yeah, the dude was weird but this applies here):

"do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." "love is the law. love under will."

then there is that little dude yoda:

"try not. do or do not. there is no try."

get up and go look out your window right now.

regardless of whether you actually did or not, your actions were just now entirely yours. i can't make you get up and look out the window. i might suggest it, but you still have to do it.

if you knew you didn't have free-will, would you have to get up and go look out the window?!

to simply act with the will of love, do we need more than this now?

there is no knowing of free-will, for free-will is an action, not an idea.

and free-will, as an action, represents a force at work.

which comes around to the saying that "work is love in action."

i try to remember that every morning when the alarm goes off and i "have to" get up and go to work. boy howdy, don't i want to try some experiments in free-will then!!!

do as thou wilt.

[MarkM]

yeah, aleister crowley has in the past got my spidey sense tingling!;)

i have heard him quoted, "do what thou wilt." i balked at this, not having at that time heard the rejoinder, "love is the law. love under will."

free will seems like the capstone of a pyramid, being the primary law of experience. as the capstone needs the body of the pyramid to stand, so it seems free will stands with the supporting superstructure of love - applied to and augmenting free will and one's experiencing.

if love is the organizing principle of the coherent universe, the concept of free will seems that which allows the universe to focalize into points of awareness (individuated consciousness). perhaps an individual's experience is impossible without the combining of love and free will - and the development of wisdom, which intermediates between them. as one learns the lessons of free will linked with concern for others, the only possible eventual outcome may be the realization of the oneness of the entire coherent universe, with free will being the driving engine of the process - fueled by love and maintained by wisdom.

just a thought...:rolleyes: mark

[leo scone]

sweet stuff markm! thanx.

let's throw some hi-test in that engine!

love is superluminal!

[Destini]

leo scone said: “if free-will implies total freedom, unlimited choice, then the answer is an obvious no - we do not have free will. total freedom likely only comes in source itself, and even then it seems that source is not merely compelled to create, but it is the ultimate "no-thing" as well. no free will there either. and there is no amount of will that would set one outside of the one, so there is some ultimate order, some ultimate pattern which all must oblige. no amount of will can free one from unity”

you could not have said it any better. i agree with you completely.
you are a very wise person

divine princess destini

[Silvanus Sanctus Germanus]

hey guys,:)

i'd say that will is free only in the present, meaning that we can experience our will more freely in the now. investing in history whether it be past or future is when our will is then given a value stripping it's freedom. if that makes any sence:rolleyes:. this whole illusion of time seems to correspond greatly with a doubt or fear of not having control over ones own will. there is something there that longs for deeper understanding. perhaps we can look at it as truely being free when it does not involve anything outside of ourselves, clear of any karmic or residual energetic repercussions. if it is purely expressed and given all the loving faith that it will not "cost" anyone anything, in my opinion, it is therefore "free". sylvain

[billybobbutterball]

methinks i complicate things overly much... the will seems like such a simple thing... much on the order of, umm, well, love...which is a study in pure, directly apprehended simplicity:d

all that needs to be kept in mind is that the power of choice is not identical to the concept of free will. choice is an effect of will not the cause... we do make choices...the freedom of each example is arguable. but for sure things are set into motion by our willful actions.... we are often caught in webs of coercion that we are not fully aware of..we can be compelled by factors that do force our sphere of influence into directions not of our own making/choosing.:(

accidental foreign influences do force us to respond with some kind of counter activity. the sum total of impingement's gets so complicated that we can not be seemingly pre-programmed ahead of time to specific responses. in that sense we do demonstrate reactive free will when slam-dammed by life's deterministic bludgeons.

yeah, sumthin' like that.

the main concern with the tangled question of free will is whether or not the will has the power of will over itself and its corollaries. can one will himself to change his nature?.... to will himself to love another, no matter what? aye, there's the rub.... one thing to willfully to walk to the window...but to will oneself to go against one's very nature puts the concept to the test.

mark likens the will to be like the capstone on the great pyramid. yeah, i can see the validity of that view...

but i see the will in a different, more active, perspective. an virtual engine of exploration. you see, if wisdom is attained by the knowledge/experience gathered through the activity of diversity within unity, then will is the active component of diversity... we are told by the ra that we are virtual explorers given the task of uncovering and exploring all the infinite nooks and crannies to be found wherever in order to eventually unveil all potentialities encompassed within our divinecosmos.:)

hmm...i better quit ... i do sense that i'm fast losing my gentle reader's freewill indulgence!:o

help! pleeze! stop me before i write again!!

thanks! billybobbutterball, esq.

[leo scone]

no pause please to your priceless prattle, bbbb!

"life's deterministic bludgeons" eh?! yeeoowww!

but then again, i resemble that remark!

[Babyblue]

earth is a love school in which basically we can choose to make the right choice, to act from love, or not and suffer pain.

even with this binnary choice, choosing the right kind of love is not straight forward and we many times take the wrong turn.

so, we have free will to choose whether we suffer or not. suffering is only caused by the lack of love to self or others.

love

this to me suggests that we only actually have partial free-will, as to choose other then love gives pain, in a way to always get you back to love. so, really you have to choose love eventually, (or perhaps be recycled energetically if you do not make it and become lightless), so ultimately we cannot choose to turn away from love.

but in a way, if that is the case, i think its kind of beautiful, you can never truly turn away from love as love is the nature of perfection .

you can try but you may end up losing your individuality and energy matrix, not as punishment , just by effect, but even then, the divine consciousness may be able to consciously decide to prevent that from happening and create new schools of learning just for the really dense, endlessly creating and filled with love.

blessings
babyblue x x x

[Babyblue]

by the way, angels do not fall.
all implications play out within their respective vibrational levels.
regards detlef

i have to say i've often pondered this question of "fallen angels" and found it doesnt resonate with me, never has, i just can't understand the notion.
how can something as pure as an angel ever fall? they live a life of the utmost service and are egoless, or thats how it feels to me (what do i know mind you! i'm just totally in love with angels)
i just love all the angels and i see fallen angels more as alien/"demi god" beings who may have interferred with us in the past, in the fantasy movie inside my minds eye!
i have even been pondering the idea of lucifer being a master genetisist of the annunaki who programmed us with the kundalini and pineal glands so we may gain enlightenment, going against the will of his superiors who wanted us as dumb slaves (not owning the ability to gain enlightenment for ourselves). i thought it would make a fantastic movie plot and vowed to right it down... keano reeves playing lucifer. ... heeheehee
i just love this stuff.
let the movie play on......i've got my popcorn ready and i'm very comfortable x

love x x x bb x x x be love <3<3<3

[Babyblue]

the the will in a different, more active, perspective. an virtual engine of exploration. you see, if wisdom is attained by the knowledge/experience gathered through the activity of diversity within unity, then will is the active component of diversity... we are told by the ra that we are virtual explorers given the task of uncovering and exploring all the infinite nooks and crannies to be found wherever in order to eventually unveil all potentialities encompassed within our divinecosmos.:)


thanks! billybobbutterball, esq.

love it billy bob, thanks for that eye opener ;-))

[tigermoff]

the way i see it is that you have free will but you cant change the future. looking at it in a fractal form, there are much larger forces at work. we only have free will of which we have control over. what we cannot control, controls us. so we only have a certain amount of free will.

[strawdog]

everyone gets everything they want no mistakes

[billybobbutterball]

everyone gets everything they want no mistakes

yeah, but dog, can you tell me, what do you really, really want?? heck, i can never make up my mind. tangling my emotions up into a tight wad is an ongoing flow of seductive possibilities that come and go -- in and out of my focus-- novelties of intriguing experiences that i think i might really want --just keep flip-flopping from day to day -- options bouncing back and forth from one tantalizing mutually exclusive conundrum of internal/external circumstance/condition to another. :p

hmm. i'm reminded of an old german saying goes like this: he who tries to accomplish everything, accomplishes nothing.:cool:

so, i think that this point boils down in that the "want" aspect has got to be powered by an abiding intense desire, that is, in contrast to mere transient, casual wannabee desire stuff. ( which is a very good thing! ...considering some of the tantalizing trash that wanders by and grabs my momentary interest...:eek:...however, on futher, future consideration i don't want that movie scenario in any of my future agendas!)

don't get me wrong, i'm all for freewill ... just on a short leash...

billiousbobbutterball ... succumbing to the 'want' of just pullin' your leg a bit..:)

[leo scone]

another saying somebody posted at my work recently:

"everything comes to he who hustles while he waits."

while there may be no mistakes, i'm for sure going to hustle to increase the joy and love within my home, for my family, my friends, and...wait...that includes everyone already. you too, y'all!

here's some punctuation fun:

everyone gets everything. they want no mistakes.

and bbb, i'm just going to cut across all threads today and say thank you for all your wit and wisdom this day and all others. puts me a bit in mind of our blessed friend robert riedel. you too rock this world.

classified ad:

free! one will, unsure if it has been used or not.

there's yer free will.

pulling any legs not tied down!

[ds37ds]

hi to all,

whenever crowley and free will are mentioned, i can't help but think of this poem:


onion peelings

"the universe is the practical joke of the general at the expense of the particular, quoth frater perdurabo, and laughed.

but those disciples nearest to him wept, seeing the universal sorrow.

those next to them laughed, seeing the universal joke.

below these certain disciples wept.

then certain laughed.

others next wept.

others next laughed.

next others wept.

next others laughed.

last came those that wept bacause they could not see the joke, and those that laughed lest they should be thought not to see the joke, and thought it safe to act like frater perdurabo.

but though frater perdurabo laughed openly, he also wept secretly; and in himself he neither laughed nor wept.

nor did he mean what he said."



from the book of lies

aleister crowley




what could this mean?

is free will just a cosmic joke? i, for one, don't 'get it'.

love to all

ds

[KassandraLoves]

i also get the feeling that some people might mistakenly think that the problems of life were chosen for them by someone else. like the teacher in the classroom gives a lesson. or like your parents make you do certain things becaus its "for your own good," but really, youre the one calling the shots.

even if your entire life and all its workings were pre-calculated down to the very last decision, they'd only be pre-calculated by you. because youre the one that plans your incarnations here.

wait....now that i think of it that is the correct answer in my opinion.

you select your "curriculum" for this place before youre even here. and you come here incarnated and make the decisions you wish to when presented with that curriculum chosen previously by you. the free will is there because you planned your trials and tribulations and whether you did or didnt plan what decisions you would make when those arose, you still had the power in your hands to make them. whether it was while you were incarnated or beforehand (beforehand? maybe everythings happening all at the same time and we just dont know it?!;)) you still made your choices.

so? your entire incarnation is planned and executed by you. no one else. you are the teacher and the student. id say thats free will. because theres no principal looking over your shoulder to mandate what you are to teach to yourself. and if there was one? youd look over your shoulder and catch a glimpse of your own face.

will you do this, or will you do that? either way, youre free to be as you please! in this form and in all forms

[leo scone]

okay. so there is me. and then there is this higher me. and that higher me has some higher me. and the highest me is all that is. at that point all distinctions that might allow for the perturbation, or "distortion", being the term in line with the law of one, of an "other" of any sort are simply gone.

and then, somehow, a distinction/distortion occurs, and all of creation unfolds.

figure out how that happens, and you will uncover all the mysteries of will.

[christincook]

this has been a question on my mind recently and just popped up after seeing a similar question.

i have not been able to find the answer of absolutely knowing ...keword: absolutely knowing that we have free will. i have contemplated this for a huge amount of time and this is one of the most important questions i have ever even thought of.

hmm wellllll hope someone gets some in depth answers and don't just post what materials say and can't show you why. we need some good hard evidence here.




there will never be absolute proof of free will. just like there will never be absolute proof of the existence of god. philosphers have debated on free will for hundreds and arguably thousands of years.

i absolutely believe we have free will. while we may come into this plane with our incarnational blue print, we can change it at will. the future is not written in stone. the same thing with the timelines...there are probable futures. if this, then that, if you keep doing x, y, and z. but if you change x a little, then this might happen. but you could change all three and throw everyone for a loop!

we are all co-creators of our universe and our realities. to create, you are in control... in other words, you've exerted your will; your free will :)

[AmelieJolie]

do humans have free will?

i think we have free will in as much as we can "see".

when you can not see, you are blind.

"and the truth shall set you free".


now, i don't know whether to believe in the concept of the "devil" as an actual being or not- all things are possible- but in any case, as an analogy, it is said that the devil is "the father of all lies" and wants to enslave us. if we are blind, and we cannot see, then we would be enslaved.

when people do things through ignorance or because they have forgotten who they truly are, then the "evil" is a result of this, not a part of their true nature. i feel very strongly and passionately that the world can heal in a powerful way once we learn to harness more love and a deeper understanding toward each other. forgiveness.

[ds37ds]

yes amelie, and if you take a look at the devil card from the waite tarot deck, the chains around our neck that bind us to this thought form are pretty loose. so much so that we could quite easily slip them over our heads and just fly off. the point is, can we see this and are we ready to do it?

love to all

ds

[ds37ds]

i came onto the site about 30 minutes ago and for some reason clicked on david's blog's and went straight to the "divine cosmos under attack" blog. i vaguely remember reading this ages ago but not having got as far as his description of the devil card which in one part says :

"but if you look at the chains around their necks, you realize they could easily be slipped off"

i've always used the the same same description for this card almost word for word. freaky - in a nice way.

love to all

ds

[Leo1123]

the only free will i've come to know in my life so far, is what i can accomplish with my own 2 hands. as someones comparison of free will, to every choice having consequences, thats pretty accurate. i like christopher hitchens analogy. i can stick a gun to your head and demand your wallet. now, you have the free will to give it to me or not, but then i might just shoot you in the face. free will as in harmless choice? i dont think so. ask the children in burma, just before they get shot in the face, if they have free will.

[samncheese]

if you didn't have free will, you couldn't question free will...

[Blacksunshine]

perhaps part of having free will is wanting absolute answers, but not being able to get them, which to me is part of the fun of being here. creating my own reality and desires for what is real. so imo, i have free will. but i can see how we can also think that we dont, becuase i too am a fate person...but not to the extent that it takes away my free-will, it just helps decide the outcomes.

[leo scone]

is it any wonder that the law of one essentially calls free will and the law of confusion the same thing? we cannot be forced to know, we can only seek to know. but it is all made of light - it is a particle and a wave. however, you can only examine it one way at a time.

and leo1123 - stark imagery! let me ask this: what if you were to ask those children after they had crossed the veil? the perceptions you would receive are likely as different as the particle and the wave, yet all part of the same light you seek.

it is one creation. there can only be one will, that of creation itself. creation, source, god - they have no free will, no choice. they can but dream the dream. so there is no free will, there is only the dream.

so this is all a dream, or perhaps let's upgrade to it being a hologram. now, i can look like anything i want in the hologram. it is, after all, only a dream, albeit a toe-stubbingly convincing dream. that is my free will. but, as a holographic reflection i have no choice but to represent the whole in the slightest of my parts. as a representative of the whole, i have no free will, as the whole has no free will.

again, how do we choose to perceive? to relate to the whole is to unite in a will beyond control. to relate to the unit is to perceive apparent freedom of choice.

oh yeah, we're suppose to bridge these ideas, right? we are supposed to unite heaven and earth. it is of the apparent highest will-less will that we be free-willed creators. there you have it. now, we can be stymied by the nature of light and our duality, or we can turn on the light and create.

what shall it be?

[KassandraLoves]

from american heritage dictionary


free: -not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
-not controlled by obligation or the will of another


will: -free discretion; inclination or pleasure:
-self-control; self-discipline
-diligent purposefulness; determination
-the mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action

then both together as american heritage defines it:


free will: -the ability or discretion to choose; free choice
- the power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

so...in my opinion, free will is just the plain fact that we can always choose what we want do do/think/say/feel/etc. it may seem as though certain circumstances with consequences (someone holding a gun to your head, offering you a million dollars, etc.) make our choices for us, but in truth they are only influencing our decisions, not making them for us.

in the beginning and in the end, it comes down to one thing: our choices...no matter what they are influenced by.

<3 love and light <3

[ds37ds]

"if you didn't have free will, you couldn't question free will..."


and we get plenty of time to do it too! thousands of years, many lifetimes and experiences.

"maybe logic" is ideal for thinking this one out. maybe we do when we understand what's happening in a given moment and make a choice rather than just being swept along by circumstances. but that is subjective to each of us, so who's to say that what we "understand" at any given time would be the same if we had been in the same position a few years earlier or later which therefore affects our "choice" of course.

maybe we are given a choice as to which way to go but the destination point and the events that occur along the way are intricately planned out before we start the journey.

as the song goes:

another picture but the scene
it's still the same

love to all

ds

[Jimbo]

what is the essential nature of the concept of the "free will"? is it not that our ability to choose may be allowed to be capricious, irresponsible, unrestrained by circumstances, and without repercussion? the very proposition of "free" will is a sort of canard in that it is, itself, false or misleading. the own will, or volition, is the very seat of the freedom of the spirit. it's a bit of a straw man, this unqualified use of the word, "free". is it absolute freedom that we are considering? are we not obliged by the laws of being to bind our innate absolute freedom to the limitations inherent to the sphere in which we've chosen to operate? after all, is it not limitation itself which defines existence? if so, the desire or attempt to eradicate limitation is tantamount to the desire or attempt to eradicate existence. is this the good? even the substitution of "transcend" for "eradicate" in the foregoing smacks of escapism.

without limitation there can be no existence. it seems to me that, in order for it to experience itself, the infinite creator had to limit itself, and, in so doing, manifest itself. this is the creation.

so, for me these days, the fascination is with the nature of limitation. from whence arises limitation? does it not arise out of distinction...or differentiation, gradation? consider any of our conceptual scales, such as light. on one end of the scale we have perfect darkness, and on the other end, perfect brightness; in between we have graduated shades of grey. at what point on the scale do we perceive the changeover from "dark" to "bright"? according to each observer's peculiar perception this point of distinction is determined to be a kind of "barrier region", a limitation of the extent of darkness/brightness. better than such a philosophical analogy is probably that of interference patterns created by colliding wave fronts expounded in the work of dw that i've read recently. but i hesitate to use it since i am not confident of my command of that material. however, the barrier region concept is intimately familiar to me, especially from my study of semiconductor junction theory, so i tend to its use, even though the wave front analogy is more...fecund--as long as we can introduce a principle of reflection. and i think we can. but i've become sensitive to my tendency to hijack threads, so here i should just end.

[christincook]

what is the essential nature of the concept of the "free will"? is it not that our ability to choose may be allowed to be capricious, irresponsible, unrestrained by circumstances, and without repercussion? the very proposition of "free" will is a sort of canard in that it is, itself, false or misleading. the own will, or volition, is the very seat of the freedom of the spirit. it's a bit of a straw man, this unqualified use of the word, "free". is it absolute freedom that we are considering? are we not obliged by the laws of being to bind our innate absolute freedom to the limitations inherent to the sphere in which we've chosen to operate? after all, is it not limitation itself which defines existence? if so, the desire or attempt to eradicate limitation is tantamount to the desire or attempt to eradicate existence. is this the good? even the substitution of "transcend" for "eradicate" in the foregoing smacks of escapism.

without limitation there can be no existence. it seems to me that, in order for it to experience itself, the infinite creator had to limit itself, and, in so doing, manifest itself. this is the creation.



you might not even be arguing against us having free will in this quote, but if you are, this is the best argument i have ever come across for it. i now find myself questioning my own free will. although, when you look at it as you've just portrayed it, it's not even a depressing or disheartening thing to not have it. we really can't and don't see the whole picture here in these bodies, in this density, so who's to say that the free will isn't an illusion?

you haven't had that many posts jimbo, but i have been very impressed by what i've seen so far. i will keep an eye out for them in the future ;-)