karma = genocide/holocaust/terror ????

[tifferella]

i am having trouble finding feedback on this issue, but i trust divine cosmos forum immensely for some help on this subject....i want to preface by saying that some people are just not able to understand complex topics like accounting, finance, chemistry, and metaphysics, and esoteric meterial... and so some people need help understanding these topics... got me?



are "you" telling me that people murdered/starved in genocide or those murdered/terrorized in holocaust or those victims of random crimes of murder and bludgeoning are just experiencing what they agreed to experience in a higher spiritual realm? are people being murdered only experiencing karma...??

people where life is so bad that they commit suicide, are they only receiving karma??

[Anatta11:11]

there are only a few possibilities:

1. that cause and effect exist for all things, including horrors like this.
2. or the universe is a random place and your actions / intentions mean little; it’s all chance and luck.
3. and a third option: don’t speculate on these matters.

all the options have benefits and drawbacks. if one is true then we can act in a way that creates good karama and frees us from suffering, but the victim is always partly to blame for what happens. two is nice because the victim isn’t to blame but you have to ask if “bad luck” is any better than “bad karama”; at least with karma you have some control. three is fantastic, but some would see it as sticking your head in the sand.

personally i go with a mix of one and three, not because it’s easy, but because it seems the most accurate to me.

all your speculation implies an inherently existing victim and an inherently existing crime. the person / self which these bad events occur only exists as a perceptual illusion, there is no hard and constant set of words that describes a “self” for their entire life, let alone moment to moment. you are making what is called a category mistake. the concept of victim / self is not findable under analysis, so asking questions related to this concept causes suffering.

now this is not to say that someone or something isn’t experiencing the effects, just that this something can’t be identified.

as for option 1, i’ve personally seen the results of uniting good intention with right action, and i can assure you cause and effect do exist; too many subjective experiences have demonstrated to me that the law of karma is very real.

if you want to dig into these matters try testing it out for yourself. cultivate a good intention towards others, and dedicate all your actions (even going to the bathroom) toward the benifit of all beings. do it for 6 months and see what happens. worse case you thought about other beings for a while instead of the normal junk floating around an uncontrolled mind.

and if you are feeling lucky, try the opposite, think bad things, and act in bad ways. see if the results make anyone happy.

[butterfriends]

hi tifferella
i don't think i've responded to one of your previous posts, but i have read them and have noticed they quite often related to this or similar topics and that you sound as though you are dealing with a lot of pain.

can i be blunt and ask you whether you have read the ra material or much of the written information david has put together?

i only ask because i can understand that the idea of karma and preincarnation choice must seem ludicrious when there is such suffering.

so unless you 'get' the framework behind why and how those choices are made, and unless you feel in your heart that the information presented in the ra material rings true for you, then to be honest any answers given here will probably be frustrating for you.

for me, i don't think of karma as some kind of spiritual payback for past deeds, instead i see it as a tool to aid spiritual growth. for example, my father has crippling rheumatoid arthritis, it is incredibly painful and frustrating for him, and yes i do believe that his having the condition was a preincarnation choice. i don't think it is karma in the sense of payback for doing something wrong, i think perhaps his physical limitations were chosen by him to help him look inward.

however, whatever the reason for it, his pain is real and i would not seek to explain it away by saying it was his choice so let him get on with it - does that make sense? just because a situation or a condition may have been 'chosen' does not make it any less devastating. my feeling is that those souls who choose to go through a painful experience are only doing so because they so desire and long for the growth that it will lead to, whether that growth is their own, or the growth they will inspire in others.

hope that makes some kind of sense - it's only my opinion, and if you find yourself reacting against and struggling with these ideas and concepts then please remember that it might simply be the case that this way of looking at the universe is not for you at this particular time. regardless, wishing you lots of love and light and hugs
lorna

[Kinawe]

your concerns and questions aren't easy to answer, in fact there may not be one cut and dry answer to your queries. the events that you discuss could be considered catalyst for change, individual karma or group karma. there may be other possible reasons that we are not aware of as well. if i may be so presumptuous, i can see that you are troubled by the events that you are discussing. i know it can be hard to live in a world that seems so out of control, but i think that being part of a positive turn around requires us to change our focus. certainly i don't mean to imply that one should ignore the goings on of the world; change is possible - but not if we are completely mired in the depths of despair and ugliness. how can you be a positive influence on/in the world? it doesn't require that you do anything physical (unless that is what you want to do, with good/right intention), the intent of your thoughts affects the power that is given to either side of dark or light.

i only hope that i have helped and not hindered you on your path of learning with this response.

the following links discuss karma and catalyst,

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?search_string=karma&look_here=answer%2cquestion&search_type=all&row_limit=30&numeric_order=1&ss=0&sc=1

http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?search_string=catalyst&look_here=answer%2cquestion&search_type=all&row_limit=30&numeric_order=1&ss=0&sc=1

take care,
kinawe

[Tenet Nosce]

tifferella,

i'll take a bite at this one. it is an intelligent question, and one that comes up from time to time on forums such as these.

the first and final answer is that i have absolutely no clue what was going through a particular soul's mind (including, for the most part, my own :d) when it decided to incarnate on this planet.

one thing i can say is that it would appear that from the perspective of the soul, details like how one will die seem to be rather irrelevant when programming the course of a future life.

that being said, a soul may find itself in the midst of genocide/holocaust/terror in the following ways: (this is not an exhaustive list)

1. the soul in question was on the other end of such events in the past (note: the soul's past need not also be the earth's past relative to a particular lifetime), and willingly chose to experience being a victim of genocide or terrorism to balance itself out. yes, this is "karma" playing out, but understand it is neither for punishment, nor retribution.

2. the soul clearly understood the risk of being caught up in such events, but for whatever reason, saw enough value in the growth offered throughout the rest of its life to consider it worth the risk.

3. the soul really and truly had complete disregard for its manner of death. hey, we all gotta die in the end, right? ;)

4. the personality may have carried a conscious, or subconscious, death wish that resulted in it being drawn to such events as a means of fulfilling its desire.

5. the personality at the time did not have a sufficient level of connection with the soul, or was simply not paying close enough attention, to the signals coming from the soul to get out of the situation before it played out.

6. the personality did receive sufficient warning to remove itself from the situation, but did not take action, or was in willful denial of such warning.

7. the personality was living in a state of "spiritual default" such that its free will was up for grabs by negative forces seeking to carry out acts of terrorism or genocide.

if you have experienced the loss of loved ones due to terrorism or genocide, i offer my sincere sympathies to you and your friends and family.

best,

tenet

[johnasmodeus]

i cannot improve on the excellent answers given above, but would like to chime in anyway.

the important thing to remember, and this is where most people stumble, is that karma is not, i repeat, not equivalent to punishment. karma does not mean it is the victim's "fault." karma does not mean "god hates you" or "god is angry with you." it is a completely unfeeling, inhuman principle, like gravity or entropy.

once people get their heads around that and forget what tv has erroneously taught them about karma, there is usually no problem with the concept at all.

[canaan]

in my opinion not all things are predestined and self imposed prior to incarnation.

i notice that one thing within the law of one series that backs this is the discussion of two higher density beings choosing to incarnate on 3rd density venus close to the harvest. these beings went with the want to serve others, but instead became tyrants and after their 4th density negative harvest they were very taken aback by their actions.

the double edged sword of free will. i am allowed to do that what i please, without consequence, infinitely experiencing the creator.

the other portion of this is that any part of creation of creation also has free will and may do what they please to you, because in reality it is also experience itself, and us, and everything.

consequence or kharma is seen more as a learning tool in my mind because forgiveness is the dissolvent of the circle of kharma.

so while perhaps some choose to incarnate under extreme circumstances to give an extremely potent lesson~ i believe others are simply infringed upon but have the ability to use every instant of existence as positive experience.

[Enkidu]

it is all catalyst.

one was not neccessarily a bad person in order to experience such a thing.

it is the subjective human consciousness that attaches labels such as "bad" "wrong" "evil".

in the end it is simply energy interacting with energy at varying vibrations.

it is all simply a learning experience for all parties involved, we all have to experience death. these events are possibility/probabilities for large groups of people to experience death at the hands of another.

perhaps by dying they actually provided a service to the murderer teaching them a lesson that they needed to learn. thus making it a service to others opprotunity, not one of "victimization"

perhaps the "victim" was a most trusted soul on the other side, the only one capable of fullfilling such a contract for the other party.

as judas was the only one strong/trusted enough to turn in his jesus, sometimes our worst enemies are actually our most trusted associates.

continue spiraling ever upwards,
austin

[leo scone]

on karma, perhaps a slightly different view. most folk in examining the concept of karma rather quickly, and i think erroneously, come to the conclusion that bad karma is bad, don't cause it, and good karma is good, do as much of it as you can. well, that all seems well and good, so long as you aren't seeking to achieve "good" karmic acts to pad your karmic account, y'know? truly, all acts of love are only truly such if they are performed without any expectation about outcome, effect, or especially personal gain. so, unless we are truly selfless to seek to perform acts of good karma falls under cart-and-horse style organizational type problems.

point is, the performance of a positive act of karma requires a "repayment" as surely as we might like to think one will be "paid back" in karmic coin for our negative karma. the play of both negative and positive karmas cannot exist without one another. this is the nature of catalyst.

so, as always, what we are out to achieve is balance. thus, we cannot really choose sides. we cannot really judge anyone else's experience. and so then, perhaps it is inappropriate to direct one's very real thought energy toward such situations in such fashion.

as for suicide, far from being irreducible and irrevocable karma, this may be the ultimate act of free will. though absolutely not as productive, in my view, as staying the course, whatever it might be.

to the major plus in all this - your intense concern for the state of others in the world and the desire to understand how any of all this can be "right" betrays you as likely strongly sto. huzzah!

and know this, just trying to process all this information and experience is exactly what you can do to effect direct change. this world needs a critical level of understanding within it's "group mind" if you will, to slip between the veils of "good" and "evil" and into the glory of the one beyond that.

[Anatta11:11]

your right, people shoudn't do the good things because they want the good results. but at first i think it's ok to start that way, to gain some first hand experience of karma.

ultimately these things should be done from a non attached view point, but doing good things to get good results is better than doing bad things :)

[Enkidu]

a truly "non-attached" view/stance is one where you dont do things because they are "good" or "bad".

these ideas are subjective and constructs of the human mind.

a "non-attached" mind is one that acts with wisdom for the smoothest movement through any activity/event. the act of action without action.

to be overly "good" is a folly, you may end up doing more damage than good by handholding. removing the opprotunity for needed catalyst by solving someone elses situation. it is up to the observing mind to make the decision as to when it is time to step aside....

there is never too much hope/light/love though. you can send that as long as you desire without ever affecting free will or involving yourself in anothers catalyst.

continue spiraling ever upwards,
austin

[Anatta11:11]

basically you've got to let people take a fall so they learn the lesson. protecting others from consequence too much is doing as much harm as not helping them at all.

it's a beautiful system of learning isn't it?

[starwhite]

wow you bring up a lot of points! here is my view, accurate or not! well, i think the earth is like a big classroom, or a school if you will! god, our supreme creator has his children here & we are trying to experiance & learn lessons in order to graduate to the next level until we can ascend to where we belong, a higher plane of existence if you will. i think we are matched to certain soul groups delibertly to gain the most experiance. i think it is all calculated by probability & outcome. there is probably more than one possible outcome(s) in any one's life experiances. because we were given free will we do not always make the best choices! however eventually we will all realize our errors & chose to advance to the next level after much is spent learning what we used to know. i hope my limited understanding helps!